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Flagler Beaches Persistent Erosion Problems

slick

Well-known member
its doing the job it was designed to to a job--its done fine camp ground and A1a fine even since you lived in california LOL. its not a poor at tempt at a seawall its a seawall thats well constructed
 

slick

Well-known member
I agree and I was under the assumption that they wanted to construct a sea wall in a way that preserved the Sea Oats and other natural growth that comes with retaining sand as well. You cannot mess with a system that has been in place for a long, long time. And may I add that the sea wall at the camp ground is in a completely different type of area and situation altogether! The wall must be snug against the roadway and yet allow nature to continue to do it's thing without taking our road with it. The 'other' sea wall is incorporated after about 100 foot or more of land was built up east of the main road and that just ain't going to get it. If you look at the east side of the wall, there's NO nature, sea oats, or anything to appreciate, just an ugly dirt wall someone could fall off or a car could go over. It was put there to hold up a campground property and no other reason. It is a cheap way to instantly pour some concrete and leave it. Apples and Oranges! SEE PHOTO>> That is an ugly attempt at a sea wall with no functionality in regards to natures beauty! Let's move A1A west 100 yards, build the sea wall so the roadway is well protected and build up the dues with sea oats and other mother nature touches and place children's wooden swing sets, slides, etc. and other goodies along the area east of A1A to draw in visitors to stay a while and spend a few dollars!!:dance2:
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and may I add, you havnt a clue what this seawall does
 

ROOT

Administrator
Staff member
I just saw this Ad for Mississippi U about the research they are doing to save Deer island with sand migration tracking research. If anyone who has the ear of those who matter should mention that Flagler and St johns should send some folks up their to emulate that research on our coast to better inform us of what and were we can have the most effect mitigating the issues.

https://www.weringtrue.msstate.edu/sand/index.html
 

slick

Well-known member
I agree and I was under the assumption that they wanted to construct a sea wall in a way that preserved the Sea Oats and other natural growth that comes with retaining sand as well. You cannot mess with a system that has been in place for a long, long time. And may I add that the sea wall at the camp ground is in a completely different type of area and situation altogether! The wall must be snug against the roadway and yet allow nature to continue to do it's thing without taking our road with it. The 'other' sea wall is incorporated after about 100 foot or more of land was built up east of the main road and that just ain't going to get it. If you look at the east side of the wall, there's NO nature, sea oats, or anything to appreciate, just an ugly dirt wall someone could fall off or a car could go over. It was put there to hold up a campground property and no other reason. It is a cheap way to instantly pour some concrete and leave it. Apples and Oranges! SEE PHOTO>> That is an ugly attempt at a sea wall with no functionality in regards to natures beauty! Let's move A1A west 100 yards, build the sea wall so the roadway is well protected and build up the dues with sea oats and other mother nature touches and place children's wooden swing sets, slides, etc. and other goodies along the area east of A1A to draw in visitors to stay a while and spend a few dollars!!:dance2:
View attachment 13478
jeffy--if ya know much about A1A you would know that moving it 300yds west, you would know that 300yds west it would have to be in the intracoastal, not good jeffy
 

sundealer

Founder
You do know the definition of insanity, right?

mo.jpg
 

ROOT

Administrator
Staff member
jeffy--if ya know much about A1A you would know that moving it 300yds west, you would know that 300yds west it would have to be in the intracoastal, not good jeffy

When disputing someone, its usually best to get your argument in line with the statement. 100 yards or 300 feet west of A1A in Flagler beach is approximately Central Ave or one block from beach side.
what are you taking notes from CNN or buzzfeed?
 

slick

Well-known member
in Beverly Beach it would be the intracoastal, thats where the seawalls at
 
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Jeffrey

CaptainAmerica
When disputing someone, its usually best to get your argument in line with the statement. 100 yards or 300 feet west of A1A in Flagler beach is approximately Central Ave or one block from beach side.
what are you taking notes from CNN or buzzfeed?
I really hate it when trains fall off the railroad tracks as they can really make a mess. Lost me a long time ago. For some odd reason I was thinking the same thing only adding MSNBC and it's affiliates, as well..... I think someone is attempting to grow oranges on an apple tree....:lmao2:
 

Fastcar

Well-known member
When disputing someone, its usually best to get your argument in line with the statement. 100 yards or 300 feet west of A1A in Flagler beach is approximately Central Ave or one block from beach side.
what are you taking notes from CNN or buzzfeed?

You guy's are talking about 2 different locations. Since the start of this thread slick has been talking north.
 
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ROOT

Administrator
Staff member
You guy's are talking about 2 different locations. Since the start of this thread slick has been talking north.


Well the portion of the road that has washed into the ocean and the title of the thread is about Flagler Beach, It seems obvious that any generalized setback that had a goal of creating a buffer between the shore and developed structures would be relative and proportional to the existing land mass. IG were the the road is adjacent to beach It would need to move further than were the land mass is narrow and some buffering is already in place.

However on rereading the OP, I would agree that neither understand the long term effects of structures on the migration of sand and these kind of petty barbs, uneducated prejudice and arguments may be typical of what has impeded long term solutions being studied and discussed productively.
 

Fastcar

Well-known member
I think that folks have differing opinions as to what works. Like your, it is an opinion. Imo, some are more correct than others, some don't take into consideration global warming which adds a entirely new dimension to the discussion and may render it moot.
 

ROOT

Administrator
Staff member
opinions are moot to strong evidence as to the effect that certain approaches have repeatedly had. even a 5th grader can grasp the concept of what happens with the sand migration in the simplified presentations i posted earlier. Opinion and belief are more akin to astrology than science. IG; belief in magic solutions among those who make the call and the hubris to ignore those who use practical scientific observations and experience.
I said it earlier, but it bares repeating I have had over 20 yrs of observation and experience with dune preservation on private property were we negated the structural disruptions of conservation by nature and reversed the localized damage that had advanced to threaten secondary dunes.
So I'd venture to say mine is an educated opinion but I can't express the breadth of the causalities in a way that most folks scale things in their imagination.
The path of one sand grain at a time multiplied by trillions to cumulative large scale effect on a fractal like pattern.
 

Jeffrey

CaptainAmerica
I would love to be there to see how they squeeze that seawall in between that roadway and them beautiful sea-oat dunes!!! My guess would be to get an trencher/auger to trench the road pack/sand and other packing trash from between the roadway and dunes and immediately replace it with concrete and all as they slowly move the length of the project using the concrete truck to follow, pour, and play leap frog as they go. I think this will minimize a lot of problems and sudden unexpected cave-ins. Instantly refilling the void with a thick concrete usually prevents cave-ins. My guess would be that it has to be at least 20 feet deep. If the dunes wash out to the base of the sea wall, and there's a foot of so below it to yet wash out before getting to the level of the lowest part of the terrain(beach), it could be catastrophic. It's going to take a lot of concrete!! Should not have to be higher than the road when finished. The hidden sea-wall will work just fine.
 
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KathyInAR

Founder
Staff member
opinions are moot to strong evidence as to the effect that certain approaches have repeatedly had. even a 5th grader can grasp the concept of what happens with the sand migration in the simplified presentations i posted earlier. Opinion and belief are more akin to astrology than science. IG; belief in magic solutions among those who make the call and the hubris to ignore those who use practical scientific observations and experience.
I said it earlier, but it bares repeating I have had over 20 yrs of observation and experience with dune preservation on private property were we negated the structural disruptions of conservation by nature and reversed the localized damage that had advanced to threaten secondary dunes.
So I'd venture to say mine is an educated opinion but I can't express the breadth of the causalities in a way that most folks scale things in their imagination.
The path of one sand grain at a time multiplied by trillions to cumulative large scale effect on a fractal like pattern.
Kinda like those who, without any practical knowledge, discount and poo-poo climate change, 'eh?
 

ROOT

Administrator
Staff member
Kinda like those who, without any practical knowledge, discount and poo-poo climate change, 'eh?
well that is a loaded question. of course the average Joe doesn't quite get the complexity of the shifting of weather patterns and the implications. The guy who should be blamed is the fool who first used the overly simplified term "global warming"
But as foolish as denying that imminent changes are in our future is the hubris of those who think something like a "carbon Tax" will make the difference.
and some of those same scientist are so fixated on being right about the cause , they are making evidence fit their model instead of looking at other symptoms independently.

What people might want to speculate on is how a magnetic polar flip will affect us and make contingent plans. Most treat it as fringe science and evidence shows we are really really close to finding out the hard way.
if you have ever played with magnets you would understand how they are nonlinear in reaction and what is gonna happen when they get close enough to accelerate.

The north pole has been moving since its discovery and that movement is accelerating exponentially , and one theory is that the reduced weight of Greenland from melting glaciers is causing it.

Facts are the sea level is rising and it is likely to rise more and faster so sacrifice of the shoreline may not be a choice in a much shorter time than people imagine.

While some people may have foolish reasons they reject climate change, those who are skeptical of the ability of proposed measures to alter the course are not foolish.
 

ROOT

Administrator
Staff member
I would love to be there to see how they squeeze that seawall in between that roadway and them beautiful sea-oat dunes!!! My guess would be to get an trencher/auger to trench the road pack/sand and other packing trash from between the roadway and dunes and immediately replace it with concrete and all as they slowly move the length of the project using the concrete truck to follow, pour, and play leap frog as they go. I think this will minimize a lot of problems and sudden unexpected cave-ins. Instantly refilling the void with a thick concrete usually prevents cave-ins. My guess would be that it has to be at least 20 feet deep. If the dunes wash out to the base of the sea wall, and there's a foot of so below it to yet wash out before getting to the level of the lowest part of the terrain(beach), it could be catastrophic. It's going to take a lot of concrete!! Should not have to be higher than the road when finished. The hidden sea-wall will work just fine.

you know why there is such a big stink made over sea oats!
because they are cheap and EASY to establish they are liken to conifers on a lava field weeds which will grow anywhere and start the land building process which makes a suitable environment for the real heroes to establish. The ball gets dropped on educating people to the rest of the story which takes decades.

The wipe out of centuries worth of canopy at Washington oaks will likely provide a significant amount of migrating sand south. Development while an accelerator, probably is just a pimple on the long slow grinding ass of mother nature's long cycle
 

Jeffrey

CaptainAmerica
you know why there is such a big stink made over sea oats!
because they are cheap and EASY to establish they are liken to conifers on a lava field weeds which will grow anywhere and start the land building process which makes a suitable environment for the real heroes to establish. The ball gets dropped on educating people to the rest of the story which takes decades.

The wipe out of centuries worth of canopy at Washington oaks will likely provide a significant amount of migrating sand south. Development while an accelerator, probably is just a pimple on the long slow grinding ass of mother nature's long cycle
I always assumed they were wanted because they were protected. I never knew this. Interesting. So it was a quick fix for stabilizing the dunes because they grew so fast and their roots were so intensely thick and long to hold the dunes from sliding downward maybe. Then this needs to be changed. What would you propose?
 
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ROOT

Administrator
Staff member
they are desirable, its just that they are only one of many species that give the dunes stability and a the first line nursery environment for other species to get established.
 

ROOT

Administrator
Staff member
Exactly what I have been saying

Building living shorelines rather than concrete walls, is going to give us the best chance at ensuring a healthy beach for generations to come.
 

Fastcar

Well-known member
As I understand, it this will be a buried sea wall. You won't see it. Vegetation will grow on the sand covering it.
 
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